Conversation
Building the Space Superhighway: Service Stations in Orbit | Ashi Dissanayake, Spaceium
Transcript
Yeah, and actually then it took me to the thinking of did maybe Asha ever thought I want to reach infinity. That's why you know that we need to find this thing and speed things up. Did you ever get such a rabbit hole that then from there you are like, OK, how do we work backwards from this? So I need to find a way to cover this infinity there.
I guess yours was more like a childhood, right? Like that you wanted to, you almost had the interest. Then maybe then taking it from there, let me ask you a question. Let's say on a scale of zero to 10, zero is the beginning of the humanity and 10 is a Star Trek. Where do you think we are today?
But Yeah, so in terms of, think we are almost there, but we are looking into more interplanetary missions. So with Spaceium, what we are thinking is where we have this network of in-space refilling stations. So the spacecraft can come to our station, dock, and then once they dock in the long-term, we can inspect their spacecraft. swap hardware, that's a very, very like 25 year long-term mission. But spacecraft refilling is the first stop to get in there. It's the first stop to getting into this whole interplanetary missions where we go between planets. So I think Spacium's a huge part of that whole infrastructure and building that network.
Mm. Yeah, actually, like then in a way that if you imagine the 10 is the post-scarcity that we have everything, we don't have any fuel constraint, we don't have the constraints that we have today, then we already have on my mind, we are already close to maybe two, three on that scale, like because we had so far the problem of going there, right? Like then launching there. And then now it seems like we kind of figured this out, like at least good enough.
to take it from the hands of monopoly people, in terms of like you can have other companies, private companies taking care of it. And then Spatium is gonna move the bar to even a higher way because now you're gonna tackle the infrastructure up there, part of the infrastructure, which is gonna allow us to stay there. Then maybe then if you can just help us understand what is the... big feature in your head that you know the dream of the dream and then by the space you will come in and then just focus through the big picture so that we can break it down to today. Okay, what do we do now? How do we take it step by step?
So the big picture both me and my co-founder has, like we are dreaming of a day when we have this whole network of refueling stations or service stations, we like to call it, just like here on earth. And we have spacecraft and then you look through the window and then that's our service station where they just come dock and refill. But that's gonna be like a really long-term plan when that actually becomes a reality. ⁓
I think where we are heading right now and how the space industry has been growing over the last couple of years, we are very, very close to actually building that infrastructure. There are so many companies that's coming up building really important infrastructure for space missions. Refilling is one, energy, and then there's OTB companies, there's companies that's going to moon. and looking into human space stations, human habitats. So I think we need all those companies to come together to build this whole infrastructure because that's the only way we all can work together, right? Because if you are just building a refueling station, but we are not working with anybody else, who are we building this for? So I think space industry have to work more closely. Moving forward because there's so many companies coming together. So it's very important all of us just Have one goal in mind in terms of building this whole infrastructure But the companies could have different different goals obviously where they want to end up in the future but as a as the space industry Space economy. It's very important. We are all working together to be an interplanetary species or go outside of Earth to be able to travel.
But actually, I haven't worked in the space industry, but I was lucky enough to interact with a couple of people. My observations and my reading from afar, space industry is one of the most collaborative one, right? In terms of really openness and exchanges and to realize the things in a way that it's more about the big picture rather than, okay, we achieved this. I got it there. Now, do you see this? Well, actually, when I take a look at your background, you kind of was born into this, and then you're going from that track at the same time. you ever maybe exposure in the YC community through the other companies that you could get a sense around the differences between space versus the rest? Because in my actually mind is always like space and rest.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ⁓ yeah, there are a lot of differences, but something that I really learned from YC is whatever you like, there's so much we can learn from other industries and YC like how YC works is there's like bunch of crazy people working for like total different goals, but they're all working so fast. And we go to group office hours and then. Everybody's like, ⁓ we signed this and we have this customer and our MRR or ARR is like million dollars. ⁓ we are still doing group office hours with the small group that we had. Like we are still doing monthly group office hours and every month, like they're just reaching new heights, you know, and it's such an awesome environment to be in because so you just want to do better. it's just kind of like everybody's like pulling each other up. while also improving. And we only have two space companies in our small group. And then we have quantum computing and then we have AI, we have hardware, but we are all kind of learning from each other, even though we are not from the same industry, if that makes sense. And it's such an awesome place to be.
Yeah. And actually then it's a very good pressure cooker, right? Like in a way, but it's the not a zero sum game at the same time. Even if you're in the same industry targeting even similar profiles that you're always guys open to each other and with the exchanges. But then actually that brought my mind the remarkable pace you and your co-founder have. Like my goodness, um, I have worked with really various, various companies, various teams. And I, since I observed this 2024, when you popped up on the launch list and ever since then I've been following your story as you know, and really, how did you pull this? Like maybe then let's, let's start literally from the, what did you need to build?
No, we are four people now and then we have an external software team. So just in the mechanical side, we are four people. So, but our first mission was just two people and yeah, it was a very crazy ride. It was crazy. We built that the whole like from idea to launch, idea to integration, was five months. And then it was a crazy ride.
Okay, then let's try to imagine, can you help us understand what exactly you're building? And if you need to break it down, I have a feeling that you can also help us understand the timelines you have in mind. Like what exactly you're building and what are the critical components of the mechanism, the system that you're building? And where are we today with your very first launch? Like what did you, which milestone did we? achieved and then like an onion layer. How are you planning to build this moving forward?
our timelines are very short. It's like couple of months before we have to reach the next milestone because that's how we like to move. We don't like to spend too much money and then work on anything for too long because we want to test, we want to iterate and we want to get the data and then improve. So that's our mindset. So I guess that's why we move very fast. And that being said, we also learn a lot by doing how we operate.
So we are building fully automated service stations in space. So we are starting with refilling because that's where we see the biggest need in the space industry. Everything we do is based on our customer feedback. We don't build anything and then go to our customers to sell it to them. We actually get feedback from customers. It seems like such a normal thing to do, but that's something a lot of people miss. ⁓ So we always get feedback from our customers and then we build, we iterate and then we get feedback and then we improve. So we have a really strong potential, really strong customer base as well as future potential customers as well who's looking to get fuel from us in the near future as well as in the long term. Yeah.
Actually, this problem that you're tackling is such a big problem. have a feeling it's such a big enabler, because NASA also started to ask call like request for solution for this thing, like just come and solve this for me. Can you maybe then come one step more and then help us see, we made it there.
And then what were the other problems that we are still trying to figure out? And why did you pick this one? Because every problem, every quest start with somewhere. Most of the times we go like zigzags and then Cyprienz and then we end up in the problem that today we are tackling. I have a feeling that you guys also got a lot of guidance from your customers when you're speaking with them. And maybe in your head, if you just do kind of like the prioritization of the problems and then how big the field problem is for someone.
So just think of Earth before we talk about space. So how do we travel on Earth? Like we can't go far without having fuel, right? But that's exactly what's happening in space. So we have OTB companies and other spacecraft. They have very limited amount of fuel that they carry from Earth. And their spacecraft still works perfectly, but they simply run out of fuel. So that's such an enduring constraint right now. And that's what we are supplying in orbit. The reason why we decided to solve this problem, one thing, me and my co-friend, are both, we love space. We grew up wanting to go to space, wanting to be an astronaut. And we were both building high-power rockets and rocket engines. And something that we came across over and over again was we can't build this payload structure or our propulsion system's not good enough. And we were like, oh my God, this is such a big constraint. And even before we started Space, we went to our customers to understand how they do it in the industry. Because as a small team, if we can't do it, and if we can't, we were working with multiple scientific labs to put their payloads into our rockets to send it to different altitudes to get data back. And constantly, I was a proportion team lead, and I had to constantly talk to our payload team to be like, Guys, listen, I cannot like our proportion system cannot handle this amount of payload. And my co-founder, he was a structural lead and he was also the captain. So we always had this issue, right? Constantly. and we're like, my God, how do people do this? How do like big space companies tackle this problem? And then even before, we even incorporated space and we started talking to customers. Like we knew there was a problem, but maybe we thought, okay, maybe there's a way they do this, but no.
just like our small team, like even the big companies had the same issue. They could not take as much as payload they wanted to. They could not go further and all their missions were constrained. And you're like, why is no one doing anything about this? And when we started Space, it was the best time to do it because the space industry was also growing exponentially. There were more and more launch vehicles coming up, more space companies coming up, more OTB companies and more satellites getting launched. Constantly. So like, okay, we have to solve this problem. If you want to grow space industry, if you want to be a multi-planetary beings, we like, how are we going to get far? How are we going to even carry more payload? Like they can't, like it's such a big constraint. So like we had to solve this and that's when we started.
today, but also all the design, everything is done around it. And everything is about how are we going to put this up there? And how is this thing is going to survive there for like five, 10, 20, as long as it's possible. So it's actually then tomorrow, as she comes and says, hey, you can refill actually. Then all of a sudden, that changes such a big ecosystem in a, like the equations change. So maybe can you do a bit? overall help us understand like what's happening. Like why is it bigger than many other would just, okay, feeling great. Okay. But it's actually bigger than this.
It is way bigger than that because when I talk to our customers, I constantly have this conversation with our customers and refilling is such a big enabler for their missions. Now they can stay no bit longer because they have a fuel supply. They don't have to carry all that fuel from Earth. And once their mission is done, they can just keep reusing the same spacecraft for more times. it just totally changes the mission profile that they had planned. So that's what PovTor enabling.
people then to say hey if I have a way to survive and refill then actually I can be a little bit more agile in the way that I develop I don't need to be super perfect then I can just try to find a way because in the long term your mission is not only refill but also help them solve some technical issues help them to get help over there like a station that you go you dock and
Mm-hmm. Exactly, like you are like spot on. Because right now how spacecraft are built, like they have to be 100 % perfect. They have to work. And if they don't work, they just have to send another spacecraft, right? But with Spacium, like in the beginning they can refill, but eventually once they come to our station, we'll inspect their spacecraft. But this is like a very long-term plan because we want to make sure. we are tackling the refueling issue first because that's what our customers are asking for. And then eventually the spacecrafts could be, they don't have to be as perfect as they are today, like because now we can inspect them and then we can swap hardware if something's broken and something's malfunctioning. And that's just going to open up the whole industry.
But, okay, how about that I want to play little bit of a devil's advocate. So, and I say, Hey, dear, I see you saw the problem. And now even the design of the rock has changed and we adapted, all of us exactly spacecraft and we adapted and now, but all of a sudden we have so much things being sent to space.
And because also there is a trade off between how well you design and build it versus what else I can do once I have the chance to do the upgrades and I have the chance to repair because now exactly SpaceX is bringing the cost to the floor almost. And then they go really aggressively exponentially in that path. And the other companies are going to also follow that. Like what do you.
might stem from this as an initial adoption problem. how do you decide how well you want to design the engine? then how do you want to design it and then send it versus the rest is going to be taken care of that. Could we all of a sudden have so many assets up there and debris problem or could we all of a sudden have the bar? We don't raise the bar, but then everyone tries to build something and then. then all of a sudden it's a of a chaos rather than enabling.
Mm-hmm. I see. really think with refueling, the debris problem's going to go down because right now a lot of spacecraft just become debris just after one use, right? Or like as soon as they run out of fuel or they break down or malfunction or the solar array gets busted. so debris problem's going to go way down once you have service stations in space. But There will be a lot of spacecraft that's getting launched to space because now, like you said, now there's a place that they can get fuel and get repairs and get inspected. But still, because we are building a network of in-space service stations, there's going to be multiple locations. it can get crowded, but I think at the same time, we'll be able to provide those services with the whole network of in-space. service stations because as much as the traffic like there will be a lot of traffic, but we'll equally will be able to service those spacecraft. If that makes sense.
Mm-hmm. I would think because like they might not have to care about going outside of Earth or become multi-planetary, right? But that being said, we launched a lot of satellites and the satellites are like we can check the weather and give internet to the Earth and there's so many use cases with these satellites. And the fact that we can refuel spacecraft that move satellites around or deploy satellites in orbit get so much value. So that's why I think someone on earth should still care about refueling in space because eventually it's like a full cycle where you still get benefit on earth.
Initially, our customers are looking for high energy orbits. So, geo is where we are looking in the beginning and then we'll develop the whole infrastructure, whole network moving from there. But that being said, we do have some conversations with some customers for low energy orbits as well. But that's a conversation that we are having. But initially, it's going to be high energy orbits.
Okay, actually currently the conversations are started to again pop up with NASA's Artemis project and with the moon and like in the one of the next episodes we're gonna host your friend to discuss how are we gonna build a hotel on the moon. exactly. So then how is it gonna affect the launch windows for Mars?
Yeah, actually, we do have some customers looking to refill on their way to the moon. So we signed that LOI like about like two years ago. And yeah, so we already have customers who wants to go further. And then the value that they get so much from us is being able to refill on the way because now they can carry more cargo. And so they don't have to carry all that fuel from all the way from Earth.
to the moon, right? So they just carry cargo instead. And it's such a long ride and it's very expensive. And it's very like they get so much value from being able to refill. So that's how we think we'll be part of that whole infrastructure as well, because we are not just looking into refueling in high-end like in geo, just orbital transport vehicles or other spacecraft. So we are also looking into build this whole network where spacecraft can refill on the way to moon as well as Mars eventually.
I think both excites me because I feel like Moon might be short-term goal. I'm not talking about short-term in the sense like next year, but it could happen within the next five to 10 years and then Mars could be more long-term. But I think both excites us because we are going to be such a big enabler for all these missions and
Like it's so exciting to even think, okay, when we have missions that's going to moon and Mars, they're going to plan those missions around being able to refuel in space. And because we are stationary and we can store up to multiple metric tons of fuel, right now our technology can handle up to 30 metric tons of fuel and that'll increase in the future. So that's why we think we can enable so much of these missions and imagine you build a company and these really amazing multi-planter emissions will revolve, will be planned around what you can provide to them.
That's why I find it like fascinating what you're working on. Can you also give us a little bit of context around perhaps what are we comparing versus what? Without Spatium today, this is how it goes with Spatium as of, I don't know, two years onwards or three years onwards. and this is going to be the value they are going to be receiving. Perhaps you can just compare in terms of percentage or in terms of fake figures just to give an idea.
Mm-hmm. I again go back to how we work on earth, right? So just imagine how like before the highways were made on earth, how like people, how did people travel? Like it was very inconvenient. I mean, I was in there obviously, but back in the day, I assume it was very inconvenient. People couldn't get anywhere and it was very expensive. So that's exactly how it's working right now in space. It's one time spacecraft, one time mission. You just keep sending more and more spacecraft. They can't go further. They can't carry more payload. So it's going to be... So once we have the service stations, it's just going to be like how we have Shell and all these service stations here on Earth where you go to get fuel. And at the same time, you can get an inspection done to see if you have like proper tire pressure, right? So that will be the same idea in space.
Yeah. Yeah. It's just that from the point of, for example, I can either build it so robust and perfect as we spoke and then launch it, or I can find a very fine balanced ratio like place. In a way I build it. It doesn't cost me as much as it used to cost time, money and resources. And then in that even that
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, It depends on the spacecraft, honestly. I do have customers who's really saving up on time because time is such a critical thing for a lot of our customers and they can't wait another year to get a launch window. Or like if something breaks down, can't like if they run out of fuel, they can't wait another two years, right? To build the whole spacecraft, go through the whole process and to launch. And so time is one of the main critical things. it's like, you're looking at like saving about one to two years. And also in terms of how much money they save, time is money because building another spacecraft is really expensive. Again, it depends on the spacecraft. like spacecraft could range from a couple of million dollars to hundreds of million dollars, right? But that all depends on. what type of spacecraft it is. So that's why I can't give you an exact number because we have a wide range of customers who owns fuel, like who owns 50 kilograms of fuel each time to wanting 10 metric tons per mission. So it all depends what their end goal is. Like if your end goal is to go to the moon, it changes compared to somebody who's an OTB company who who needs maybe like, let's say a hundred kilos of fuel per mission.
Yeah. You Yeah, so when we first started, it was me and my co-founder, we put everything we had into the company until we had like 80 cents to our names. I remember not being able to put gas to the car and then the car insurance got canceled because we hadn't paid the insurance for like months at that point because everything was going into the company to like whatever the small amount of hardware we could get our hands on, we would buy it. and it was March of 2024, we knew we were gonna get evicted in April because we didn't have money for rent and we applied for all these loans of like, you know, get like same day loan or whatever. And we were like, still, but we were still.
Yes, we started 2023, from 2020, like we incorporated in 2023, but it was a very rough road until like 2024. It was like, um, like super rough. Um, like we were building out of a laundry room and we like, it was one of the tables and it was like very small apartment. had my co-founder moved into a small apartment and we had obviously one table, but because we couldn't like, would, we were echoing. Uh, so here.
Like one of us would go into the laundry room and the other one would go into one of the other outside rooms and sleep on, sit on the ground and then do the meeting. Which is really fun because, and we were like, we would still build a hardware and they would talk to investors and we've like, obviously all the answers were like, no, this is not going to work. Like just, I don't know, get a job or something. And, but we're like, no, we are going to do this because.
no matter what you tell us, our customers tell us differently. They tell us that they won't feel. So like no one believed in us, obviously. And when we're like, no, we are not going to give up. just customers kept believing in us and they told us how much, how important this is for them. And in March, 2024, that's when we had like almost nothing, like 80 cents and we were going to get like get evicted. And we applied to YC for the fourth time we applied to YC. And we did an interview with our group partner, Brad, in February. it took us like, usually, YC let you know the decision within a day, but I think it was during the other batch. So I think it took us like two weeks or three weeks, and it was the longest time ever. we could, in my life, we could not sleep, we could not eat. We were like, my God, what's happening?
And one day Brad calls us and Brad tells us, he wants to talk again. We're like, okay, he goes to the call. And then he tells us, okay, guys, we want to invest in you. And we were like, okay. We didn't believe, it was like, everything was so bad. And the fact that Brad's telling us like, guys, we want to invest, like, okay. And then he repeats. And then we just like exploded. were like. my God, we just started screaming and then Brad was just like very calm. just sit in there. Let us just take a breath. And yeah, and then everything changed from there. And then from there, we go to SF. We, we start building and we decided we want to do the mission. The last, the previous mission we just launched. So we decided and we, yeah, we build that in five months and yeah, now we are here.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I remember my co-founder calling me, like Reza calling me and because he went to get like this is way before the car insurance got removed for non-payment. But before that, like he wanted to like put gas because he didn't have like the car didn't have enough gas to like get home. And we were like e-transferring because in Canada we have this system where you can like e-transfer between accounts. And we were like collecting like dollars and like a couple of cents and go putting in like one account so he could like somehow put gas for like $10 to just to get home. And it was because we put everything into Spacium. Like there was no question asked. Like we didn't care if we had food or not. Like everything had to go to Spacium. Like everything we bought or like it was just survival at that point. Like we wouldn't, we weren't going to let Spacium die.
surprises me, how come not a single soul from other than my see before that recognize this because there are also people who are very knowledgeable about the space and then they are they work in the industry and then they are investors now is it because the number of startups are incredibly high right now or what was the What was the thing that was missing to let them see your potential and how much this means to you? And you have the capabilities to build that.
But my surprise is actually to that too, because I don't know, like, if somebody speaks to you, even before I mentioned, I start following you, like, if you just really dig into the topic, it's not that you are a super sci-fi right now. That was for me the... that I couldn't understand. And then also you are so committed, so determined. Like, what do you think was the missing piece so that another founder, when they faced with a similar situation, perhaps looking back, this could have helped or we could have done this differently so that our message could arrive much clearer with a better clarity.
⁓ I think don't know, like in the beginning, so we... We were maybe, I don't want to say we were slow, but because we were also focusing on customers as well as technology and because we didn't have enough cash to move as fast as we wanted to. So a lot of investors wanted to see more traction, but there was no way for us to get that traction because we didn't have money to build. So I guess that's what the problem is, but it's very important not to give up obviously.
Okay. Yeah, so we wanted to make sure get somebody who has the same mindset, who wants who's obsessed with space, who's obsessed with their work. So that's how we want to build the team. So we went through like so many applications and now we have two amazing engineers and they're just amazing.
We showed them our warehouse and they immediately fell in love. When they saw the vibration bed, T-bag and all the hardware we have built. And this is obviously after our first mission. So we already had prototypes. We already had all the test equipment. We had that vibration bed. And they were very excited about the mission and the vision that we have for the company and what are the steps that we are taking. when someone's obsessed and when they know how fast we move, it really hooks them in because the team that we have, they're obsessed. They literally get to the office at 6 a.m. they get to the office at 6 a.m. and they don't leave until like eight, nine, and then sometimes they also come on. during the weekends and like it's a happy place, know, they just want to be here and then just build cool stuff.
So yeah, we obviously put it on our website and LinkedIn, but the two team members that we have, we knew them from before. So it really helped. So one of them, we knew how he worked. We knew how obsessed he is with everything. He literally cannot get out of the clean room. He's just there building a for the next mission, but obviously I can't talk about the next mission yet. And then we have the other team member that he's also super obsessed and they're already working on like our future missions.
So we are looking to hire a few more engineers. we are looking for engineers who's very, who's willing to be hands on, who's willing to learn. It's okay if they don't really have expertise, but as long as they're willing to put the hours and learn because that's all because what we are doing is so new and we might not even know everything, but that's okay. As long as
you are willing to put the hours and willing to learn and you're obsessed with it. because you can't teach someone to be obsessed, but you can teach someone to learn something. Like they could always learn new engineering aspects, but they can never be obsessed unless they are like it's actually in them. So that's the people we are looking for always.
Yeah, I think the attitude you can't really teach, Actually, I just pictured you and your co-founder in my head. When you guys moved in together, did this make things probably faster? But at the same time, did you also sometimes say, need a break from you today? Also, in the evening, I will go out and then have my dinner on my own. How was the dynamic going on? Because it's stressful times, It's not rosy, sunny, sunshine.
⁓ Actually, we had worked before, way before Spacey and we were working together for a really, really long time. So we were so used to working together for like late hours, without any sleep for days. So it was just normal for us to just be stuck in the same place and then just work. It was very normal. We never felt... stressful around each other or like, my God, I need to like get out from you, like get away from you. We never felt that because we worked like that for years. he was, when we were like building rockets, like way before Spacium, I would always, like he would always call me or I would always call him and like we would work together because we used to like, we were both obsessed with space and we weren't like, if we have some, if we have a deadline, we just like. nothing else matters, we just go for it. So we had the same mindset. So it was very easy to build a company because we both thought the same way and we had worked together. So it was, we never had any tension.
Since 2019. Yeah, since 2019. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, we were, we were in a rocketry team and that's when we met and we were like, yeah, yeah, through a project. So in, at the university, we were building rockets and it was more like a scientific team where we build rockets and we work with other scientific labs and they send out, send them, send us their pillows and we put it on rockets and launch it to different altitudes.
So he was the captain, I was a proportion team lead. He also took care of structures. So as the team leads, we are like, you have to work together. And it was like a very easy transition coming from a team to a US own startup because like we never have, we honestly have never had any tension.
yeah, for sure. Like we always challenge each other. Like we always question and challenge and, but it's never like personal because I think when you know the other person and how they work and also we wouldn't have started the company together if we knew we can't work together, right? At that point we had already worked with each other for four years. so like it was just like, it was just doing the same thing, but now for your startup.
Yes, so many. my God. There were so many times I was in the wrong room and got like roasted so much. And when people like, my God, this idea is never going to work. And then five minutes later, I go to a customer call and they're like, we need 30 metric tons of fuel. And it's just like such a big difference. ⁓ I don't like say any names publicly, but yeah, I
Hidden assumptions that we are going to refill satellites is one hidden assumption, which we are not, because we talked to a lot of satellite providers and they want to send a new satellite every five years or so, and it doesn't really make sense for them to refuel. And the real value comes from refueling is being able to carry more payload and move around in orbit, move around in space. go further and satellites don't do that. So that's a very hidden assumption. ⁓ so you guys are refilling satellites. like, I mean, no, we are refilling other spacecraft who has a propulsion system on board and who wants to go further, carry more payload and who can actually benefit from moving around rather than.
Okay, actually, this was also, I remember you had corrected me when I had written, because this was what I consumed. And I was so surprised. Okay, actually, I even, of course, I'm not in the space, I was unable to distinguish, okay, this is not correct, because sometimes even references, solid references that you come to believe. And today, what sort of things is Aishi consuming?
⁓ huh. Yeah. Yeah, space has always been something I love. So I don't really feel like I'm working. I feel like I'm doing something I love. So that's part of it. But burnout could be real. Like when we did our first payload, it was such a strict time frame and it was really rough. But we obviously took a break soon after the integration. Two-day break, but it was still.
this is super really. And also, how do you find a way to give back? Because there are so many folks out there, especially young graduates. Do you ever get a chance to interact with them? I can also understand you were in a survival mode. Like in survival mode, first you want to yourself survive. But obviously by sharing your experience and your time with us, so then you kind of... have your voice to be heard further.
Yeah, I try as much as I could, but honestly, I don't have lot of time. But I guess doing podcasts like this, like, so if there's anybody listening and who wants to be a founder, like, hopefully they know not to give up. And because I feel like giving up is the worst thing that you can do for yourself. ⁓ So hopefully they'll won't give up and you'll keep trying.
Yeah. Yeah, but also that very much depends on the environment you position yourself in and with whom you partner too, right? Because if one of you had a little bit of doubt about it, imagine that you have to reset everything and then you would start either go solo or look for another person still, right? That sounds so easy, but yeah.
Even now. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, I was just like lucky that way. Yeah, yeah. I know, even like during first payload and even before we got to YC when things were tough, like if I had a different co-founder, things would have been very different because it's so easy to give up, right? Like it's so easy to say like, done with this. It's just too hard. ⁓ Because we hit the rock bottom. Like if there's anything
But you were also quite intuitive enough to pay attention to what you were hearing there. And obviously, you asked the right questions too. Because sometimes it's like, you know, the politician interviews, politicians says whatever they want to say, but you need to take the right insights and sentences from them. Did you ever had such situations when you were talking to the customers?
I think so. So with customers, think sometimes they might not give you exactly what you want, but it's up to you to ask the right questions to better understand their timeline, their needs, what their plans are, and then give them a solution that they actually need. Sometimes they might not even understand, okay, we need refilling, right? So you have to... tell them, okay, this is what we bringing to the table and this is how we can help and this is how we can make the whole space industry better. Also, it's never like one time conversation. You never go to a call and be like, hey, we can refill your spacecraft. Just let's work together. It never works that way. It's like year long conversations.
Mm. But Ashit, when you try to observe yourself objectively, as objectively as possible, what do you think makes Spatium special to tackle this as the best solution provider? Is it because you guys are, is it a little bit of like scientific piece is really heavier and much better? Is it all? Or is it more like, well, there were so many rigid way of thinking till now. And then we just, you know, pull it apart and then close our ears and eyes and then start from scratch from the basics and then like step by step and break it down. Like first principles, which probably we live off everything, but which one is the heavier part? what is the brain behind this?
I think it's a little bit of everything, but like you said, it's the first principle. Sometimes we just have to go back and then figure out how can we change this injury constraint? Like, what can we do? Sometimes it's such a basic thing and you just build from there. And also the grit, right? Like not wanting to give up and just that mentality also a big part of it.
And it's just a lot of things come together. It's the team dynamic, like co-founder dynamics and how we work. it's so technical heavy and it's such a big challenge and how we solve those problems. Like, do we solve it just for the next mission or do we solve that's is going to be a great solution over the years? like, is it something that's going to be able to survive over the next 25 years, right? So we always look back and go back to our objectives, go back to first principles and then build from there. So I think that's why we are in a good position.
But also your product trade-offs are not like if you build on a SaaS, like your trade-off is going to disappear in two days time, but then you also pick the right hardware piece, and then you also have the designs thinking reflected on the system. Then how do you strike the balance over there? Like when you decide long term versus a little bit launch, launch.
Hmm Yeah, that's a really good question. I'm always thinking about the long term and short term as well. So we have like we have trade-offs obviously like sometimes it might only work in the short term but as long as we can adapt in the future with what with the technology that we have today to make it easier in the future I think that's a good trade-off to be able to have a very successful mission and test our hardware. in the short term. there are trade-offs, but it's just a matter of what's more important. Is it important to prove it right now and then adapt, or should we make it easier in the future and make it harder in the short term? So it just depends on the hardware and it depends on the problem, really.
So we do it very differently, honestly. We are doing 95 % of the tests in-house for our spacecraft. So only thing that we don't have is X-ray for our welds. And we do welding in-house, we do like vibration tests in-house, we have a TVAC, we have small, we can do some machining in-house. We do pressure tests, everything in-house. So that's why gives us like, so our iteration time is really low compared to like what you see in the industry because we just do it in-house. We test it, we build it, we iterate. So that's why we were able to do everything in five months, but also very less sleep, but something that we are trying to change moving forward. We realized sleep is very important after our first mission. okay.
Thanks. So for an example, if you need to need a part manufactured, then we have suppliers that we send it to and then we get the part. Like we are always looking for like really short lead times. And in terms of in-house, that's a lot of the tests are in-house because that's where we get most data compared to having to wait two months, three months in a wait list to get access to a vibration bed. So that's why we have those very crucial. test equipment in-house, we are not manufacturing in-house. But ⁓ eventually we'll start to bring manufacturing in-house as well, but right now we don't do that in-house. So that's obviously a balance, but as much as we could get more data, the more we can learn, we try to bring those in-house.
Okay, amazing. I have a feeling that I have been just like asking and asking questions to you. And my curiosity doesn't come to an end when it comes to imagining what exactly you are building and how is it going to change really our lives. Probably the part that I would like to go into is now, how does that feel? It's such a simple question.
Amazing. I think once you have your core support group in place and then I have a feeling you achieved that now and then nothing can stop you from now on because you have your family, you have your support group, you have your co-founder, other founder friends and you have such strong IC ecosystem and your docs. Well, I can only see good reasons why that will take off. I very simplified it, but in the end of the day, we are human beings, right? Like this part needs to be there too. And you seem to be a very determined person with a very good heart. Yeah, I can see that will really take Is there anything?
think it's very important who you surround yourself with because that's something I really learned during YC and even before YC. But YC was this amazing environment. if you don't have YC, you can still surround yourself with hardworking people who's solving hard problems because then you can only, it's only just up from there. Because the my friends that we have from YC, We talk about lot of issues like it's totally different industries, like I said before, but very helpful, very supportive. And you just want to like help each other at the same time you want to move up the ladder. So it's like when you surround yourself with like-minded people, it's a very good environment to be in as a startup founder.
is a good fail. Actually, we have a tradition in the end of our podcast. We ask a question from previous founders that they had joined us. And your lucky question comes from Brandon.
No, no, he didn't know. He didn't know. We just ask him for a question and for the context Brandon's several. ⁓ So his question is, when does it hurt the most and what keeps you going?
Thank What keeps me going is the vision of having refueling stations and when spacecraft go and they can see the station and they're like, okay, that's the space-fueling station. Now we just go get fuel. So that's is what keeps me going. And what hurts the most is, I guess it used to hurt when people didn't believe in us. That was something that used to hurt. And because you are still human and then you kind of like started out yourself. then now that after the whole fundraise, YC surrounding around like all the YC.
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